GOOD LEADERSHIP

Humanising Organisations: A Psychodynamics Journey Towards Aliveness At Work

Gianpiero Petriglieri is a distinguished psychiatrist, scholar and thought leader in leadership and organizational behavior. In this stimulating interview, we delve into the history, theory and tools of system psychodynamics (SPD) to uncover the profound interplay between organizational structures, processes, and norms, and individual desires, thoughts, and actions. We examine how an SPD approach can assist in harmonizing productivity and individual aliveness, paving the way for more human and flexible organisations. We discuss the role of "holding environments" in nurturing growth and the impact of "social defenses" and "immunity to change". We also examine the psychodynamics of leadership and highlight the need for "identity workspaces" to foster personal development. Lastly, we explore the psychodynamics of education, advocating for a conscious shift towards value-driven research and teaching in academia. Join us on this enlightening journey that could reshape your perspective on leadership and organisational transformation!

Jump to




BEHIND the interview

Why is the interview important? Who are we talking to?

DISCOVERING THE DIALOGUE WITH

gianpiero petriglieri

We were compelled to interview Gianpiero not only for his passionate advocacy for more humane businesses and business education, but also because his unique blend of expertise in psychotherapy and management promised to provide a remarkable perspective on the intricate and often unconscious interplay between individuals and collectives in organizations.Our intention was to continue to explore the intersection of psychology, philosophy, and management, with a focus on three key themes.

First and foremost, Gianpiero's extensive work, often in collaboration with his wife Jennifer, in revitalizing system psychodynamics (SPD) captured our attention. With Otti's background as an Insead-certified coach in SPD, we saw an opportunity to enrich our evolving social ontology, rooted in critical realism and complexity theory. SPD aligns nicely with critical realism, as it acknowledges the existence of both external social structures and internal psychological states of individuals, emphasizing the interconnectedness between the two.Building also on the Tavistock tradition of "socio-technical systems", it offered a fresh perspective to the ongoing discourse on complexity, often narrowly focused on cybernetics or technical models, or rather crude adaptations from natural sciences.

We were eager to delve into the essential practices and tools of SPD while exploring its ontological and ethical foundations. Particularly, we sought to understand its "subversive" and liberatory aim of humanizing social systems, and examine its potential alignment with constructionism and positive organizational scholarship, as discussed with Jane and Monica. SPD's lack of an explicit metaphysics raised questions in our mind about the risk of individualism, relativism, or normative claims difficult to ground within the theory itself. In this context, it shared a possible challenge with psychoanalysis in terms of conceptual ambiguity, potential lack of scientific rigor, unclear ethical foundations, and an overemphasis on the unconscious, potentially hindering integration with other approaches -further amplified by the implied 'challenger' status of its practitioners.

Secondly, our aim was to delve into the practical application of SPD in the context of a transformation towards more humane organisations. The concept of "organizational boundaries," often connected to the work of Eric Trist and Eric Miller, and the development of "holding environments" based on Donald Winnicott and Wilfred Bion's research intrigued us. These ideas appeared to align with the notion of "deliberatively developmental organizations" advocated by Bob Kegan. Also, we were curious about SPD's concepts of "social defenses" and "immunity to change" and how they played a role in addressing the challenges of organizational change.

Lastly, Gianpiero's insights into leadership development fascinated us. We had observed that most leadership competency models focus on competence acquisition, lacking the necessary integration of both personal development and (social) identity formation. Gianpiero's work on "identity workspaces" and the distinction between identity construction and "identity fabrication" shed light on how leaders emerge within dynamic social processes, resonating with our conversation with Simon Western. His exploration of marginal leadership was particularly enlightening. Moreover, his extensive writings on the urgent need to reform business schools and leadership development in education echoed our conversations with Gert Biesta, Bill Torbert, and Alan Watkins.

KEY LEARNING GOALS (click LIGHTBULB to see the INQUIRY MAP)

  • What is System Psychodynamics (SPD)? Which are its main concepts? How does it help to understand and change organisational systems?
  • What are potential challenges to SPD's onto-epistemological and ethical grounding? How does it relate to critical realism?
  • What are the practical interventions SPD can provide to humanise organisations?
  • How does SPD relate to leadership development, and what is the relevance of identity? How can leadership education be improved drawing from SPD?

✿ ABOUT GIANPIERO PETRIGLIERI

Gianpiero Petriglieri is an esteemed psychiatrist, organizational scholar, and influential thought leader in the fields of leadership, organizational behavior, and mental health. As an Associate Professor of Organizational Behaviour at INSEAD since 2012, he brings a unique blend of expertise, holding qualifications in psychiatry and psychotherapy from the University of Catania Medical School, Italy, and advanced organizational consultation from the Tavistock Institute of Human Relations in London, UK. He previously served as a Visiting Associate Professor at Harvard Business School, Copenhagen Business School in Denmark, and as an External contributor at IMD, and he is a member of the Academy of Management, the European Group for Organizational Studies, and the A.K. Rice Institute for the Study of Social Systems, among others.

In his distinguished teaching career at INSEAD, he has been responsible for program design and direction for the MBA program, offering a wide array of courses related to business and society, value-based leadership, practical wisdom, and responsibility in business. Additionally, he has played a significant role in executive education programs with numerous renowned companies and institutions worldwide. As a prolific researcher, Petriglieri has authored numerous articles across a wide range of pertinent topics, such as gig economy work, leadership identity, and the personalization of management learning, published in prestigious academic journals, such as Administrative Science Quarterly and Academy of Management Learning & Education, and contributed several book chapters that offer a psychodynamic perspective on identity and leadership within organizations.

Petriglieri has received numerous awards and honors underscoring his exceptional contributions to research and teaching. Notable accolades include the Best Symposium Award from the Academy of Management's MED division, the INSEAD Dean's Commendations for Excellence in MBA Teaching, the Brandon Hall Excellence in Leadership Development Gold Award, and the Ideas Worth Teaching Award from the Aspen Institute Business & Society program. His thought leadership extends to his contributions in practitioner and clinical publications and leading institutions such as the World Economic Forum, with his insights featured in a large number of international publications and media outlets such as BBC, Bloomberg, Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, and Forbes. Petriglieri has been recognized among the 50 most influential management thinkers by Thinkers50 in 2021, 2019, and 2017.

Emphasizing the psychological aspects of leadership and the interplay between individual well-being and organizational effectiveness, his work has significantly contributed to our understanding of systemic leadership dynamics in modern workplaces. 


Exploring the Critical concepts for this session

Industrial and organizational psychology (I-O psychology) "focuses the lens of psychological science on a key aspect of human life, namely, their work lives. In general, the goals of I-O psychology are to better understand and optimize the effectiveness, health, and well-being of both individuals and organizations." It is an applied discipline within psychology and is an international profession. I-O psychology is also known as occupational psychology in the United Kingdom, organisational psychology in Australia and New Zealand, and work and organizational (WO) psychology throughout Europe and Brazil. Industrial, work, and organizational (IWO) psychology is the broader, more global term for the science and profession.

Psychodynamics, also known as psychodynamic psychology, in its broadest sense, is an approach to psychology that emphasizes systematic study of the psychological forces underlying human behavior, feelings, and emotions and how they might relate to early experience. It is especially interested in the dynamic relations between conscious motivation and unconscious motivation. The term psychodynamics is also used to refer specifically to the psychoanalytical approach developed by Sigmund Freud (1856–1939) and his followers. Freud was inspired by the theory of thermodynamics and used the term psychodynamics to describe the processes of the mind as flows of psychological energy (libido or psi) in an organically complex brain.

Group dynamics is a system of behaviors and psychological processes occurring within a social group (intragroup dynamics), or between social groups (intergroup dynamics). The study of group dynamics can be useful in understanding decision-making behaviour, tracking the spread of diseases in society, creating effective therapy techniques, and following the emergence and popularity of new ideas and technologies. These applications of the field are studied in psychology, sociology, anthropology, political science, epidemiology, education, social work, leadership studies, business and managerial studies, as well as communication studies.

Systems psychodynamic scholarship focuses on the interaction between collective structures, norms, and practices in social systems and the cognitions, motivations, and emotions of members of those systems. It is most useful to investigate the unconscious forces that underpin the persistence of dysfunctional organizational features and the appeal of irrational leaders. It is also well equipped to challenge arrangements that stifle individual and organizational development. 

This chapter reviews psychodynamic perspectives on the emergence and function of individuals’ identities. It draws on traditional psychodynamic theories, which focus on identifications with early caregivers, and systems psychodynamic ones, which focus on work groups and organizations, to put forward the idea of identity as a fabrication. That is, a process of positioning the self in (existential) time and (social) space in ways that fulfil its longings, sustain its beliefs, and bolsters its relations. The chapter argues that a psychodynamic lens can enrich other perspectives on identity, and concludes with some suggestions for future research.

We introduce the concept of identity workspaces, defined as institutions that provide a holding environment for individuals’ identity work. We propose that institutions offering reliable social defenses, sentient communities, and vital rites of passage are likely to be experienced as identity workspaces. The fluidity of contemporary corporate environments and the movement toward individually driven careers has generated an increased need for identity work, while concurrently rendering corporations less reliable as spaces in which to conduct it. As a result, we posit that business schools are increasingly invested with the function of identity workspaces. The conceptual framework presented here provides a lens to better understand how and why business schools are called upon to fulfill a function of growing importance—developing management education that goes beyond influencing what managers know and do, and supports them in understanding and shaping who they are.

The psychoanalytic terms “holding” and “containing” originate, from the writings of two prominent psychoanalysts: ‘Holding’ in the papers of Winnicott (1960); ‘containing’ in the papers of Bion (1962). The current focus in psychoanalysis of emotional nurture and exchange rather than one of hedonic satisfaction, is primarily as result of Winnicott’s writings and observations. Both terms are now part of the core vocabulary of all therapists, and many other helping professions.

Never miss an interview! Just go to YouTube and subscribe to our Good Organisations channel for all upcoming interviews and all our new videos!


GETTING STARTED

A Resource Kit to launch your explorations

This article celebrates the vitality of the systems psychodynamic approach and its potential to humanize organization studies, management practice, and working lives. An approach is a deliberate movement: a way to move closer to, inquire about, and deal with something. The systems psychodynamic approach involves moving closer to organizations and workers through research and educational efforts to study and manage the unconscious dynamics of organizing. It aims to reveal the fears, needs, and wishes that underpin rigid structures and dysfunctions in groups, organizations, and institutions—and to foster more adaptive and functional ways of dealing with those impulses. Advocates refer to this approach as ‘the work’. This article tells the story of the work as we understand it. We tell it as a life, to highlight the work’s intent and evolution, its struggles and contributions, but mostly to make the point that the work is alive. It is alive as an academic enterprise and it is a way of life. An approach devoted to dismantling defenses, countering authoritarianism, and nurturing development and democracy, we argue, is more relevant than ever. And so is what we see as the purpose of the work: fostering pluralism without polarization in human relations.

Through an inductive study of learning and development (L&D) executives in 69 multinational organizations, we build a theory of marginal leaders’ conception of learning in organizations. We found that, as marginal leaders, L&D executives lacked an established template for their leader identity and had to navigate conflicting prescriptions for their function. The conception of learning—a process that involved finding a place in relation to significant counterparts, taking a stance on learning, and building learning spaces—allowed them to craft identities that gave meaning and direction to their work, grounding their identity as leaders. Not all marginal leaders took the same trajectory toward firm ground for their identities. Some left the margins to lead, embracing either an instrumental or a humanistic view of their function. Others learned to lead from the margins, casting that duality as a paradox. Taking a systems psychodynamic approach to examine marginal leaders’ trajectories through a defining duality, this study reveals the interplay between existential and strategic layers of leader identity construction. Theorizing the conception of learning as the process through which leadership comes to life and becomes organized, the study expands and bridges the literatures on leader identity and on the management of dualities.

Academics have lamented that practitioners do not always adopt scientific evidence in practice, yet while academics preach evidence-based management (EBM), they do not always practice it. This paper extends prior literature on difficulties to engage in EBM with insights from behavioral integrity (i.e., the study of what makes individuals and collectives walk their talk). We focus on leader development, widely used but often critiqued for lacking evidence. Analyzing 60 interviews with academic directors of leadership centers at top business schools, we find that the selection of programs does not always align with scientific recommendations nor do schools always engage in high-quality program evaluation. Respondents further indicated a wide variety of challenges that help explain the disconnect between business schools claiming A but practicing B. Behavioral Integrity theory would argue these difficulties are rooted in the lack of an individually owned and collectively endorsed identity, an identity of an evidence-based leader developer (EBLD). A closer inspection of our data confirmed that the lack of a clear and salient EBLD identity makes it difficult for academics to walk their evidence-based leader development talk. We discuss how these findings can help facilitate more evidence-based leader development in an academic context.

This article reviews the history, foundations, development, and position of systems psychodynamic scholarship in organization studies. Systems psychodynamic scholarship focuses on the interaction between collective structures, norms, and practices in social systems and the cognitions, motivations, and emotions of members of those systems. It is most useful to investigate the unconscious forces that underpin the persistence of dysfunctional organizational features and the appeal of irrational leaders. It is also well equipped to challenge arrangements that stifle individual and organizational development. The article documents the tension, in this body of work, between an “outside-in” perspective, focused on institutions’ influence on individuals, and an “inside-out” perspective, focused on leaders’ influence on institutions. It also interrogates the marginalization of systems psychodynamic scholarship, positing that its marginality is both a social defense for organization studies as a whole and a generative feature of the systems psychodynamics approach. Granting it a position of functional, rather than oppressed, marginality, the article concludes, will enrich research about the experience, management, and organization of contemporary work.

For over half a century, systems psychodynamic scholars have been ‘sexting’ organization science, in short quips and long form, with mixed reception. This article chronicles their ambivalent relationship and argues that making it closer and more overt would benefit organization theory and organizations. It begins by tracing the history of using science as a cover for an  instrumental ideology in organizations and their study. It is a history, the article contends, that is repeating itself with the advance of algorithmic capitalism. The article makes the case for a systems psychodynamic stance as a form of progress and protest, a way to embrace science’s methodical pursuit of truth while countering its dehumanizing potential. Taking this stance, it argues, might lead to more humane organization studies. That is, to more meaningful accounts of, and more useful theories about, the issues facing organizations, organizing, and the organized today. Finally, the article elaborates how systems psychodynamics can help humanize three areas of scholarship – those on identities, leadership, and institutions – and concludes with a call for celebrating, rather than tolerating, subjectivity in organization theory

Building on an inductive, qualitative study of independent workers—people not affiliated with an organization or established profession—this paper develops a theory about the management of precarious and personalized work identities. We find that in the absence of organizational or professional membership, workers experience stark emotional tensions encompassing both the anxiety and fulfillment of working in precarious and personal conditions. Lacking the holding environment provided by an organization, the workers we studied endeavored to create one for themselves through cultivating connections to routines, places, people, and a broader purpose. These personal holding environments helped them manage the broad range of emotions stirred up by their precarious working lives and focus on producing work that let them define, express, and develop their selves. Thus holding environments transformed workers’ precariousness into a tolerable and even generative predicament. By clarifying the process through which people manage emotions associated with precarious and personalized work identities, and thereby render their work identities viable and their selves vital, this paper advances theorizing on the emotional underpinnings of identity work and the systems psychodynamics of independent work.

Through a longitudinal, qualitative study of 55 managers engaged in mobile careers across organizations, industries, and countries, and pursuing a one-year international master’s of business administration (MBA), we build a process model of the crafting of portable selves in temporary identity workspaces. Our findings reveal that contemporary careers in general, and temporary membership in an institution, fuel people’s efforts to craft portable selves: selves endowed with definitions, motives, and abilities that can be deployed across roles and organizations over time. Two pathways for crafting a portable self—one adaptive, the other exploratory—emerged from the interaction of individuals’ aims and concerns with institutional resources and demands. Each pathway involved developing a coherent understanding of the self in relation to others and to the institution that anchored participants to their current organization while preparing them for future ones. The study shows how institutions that host members temporarily can help them craft selves that afford a sense of agentic direction and enduring connection, tempering anxieties and bolstering hopes associated with mobile working lives. It also suggests that institutions serving as identity workspaces for portable selves may remain attractive and extend their cultural influence in an age of workforce mobility.

This article examines how and why business schools might be complicit in a growing disconnect between leaders, people who are supposed to follow them, and the institutions they are meant to serve. We contend that business schools sustain this disconnect through a dehumanization of leadership that is manifested in the reduction of leadership to a set of skills and its elevation to a personal virtue. The dehumanization of leadership, we suggest, serves as a valuable defense against, but a poor preparation for, the ambiguity and precariousness of leadership in contemporary workplaces. We propose ways to humanize leadership by putting questions about the meaning of leadership—its nature, function, and development—at the center of scholarly and pedagogical efforts. Reflecting on our attempts to do so, we argue that it involves revisiting not just theories and teaching methods, but also our identities as scholars and instructors.

Courses that aim to foster reflection and personal development in the service of leaders’ development are increasingly popular within MBA curricula and executive education portfolios. We explore the process through which these courses enrich their institutional context and enhance students’ ongoing development and practice of leadership. Through an inductive, qualitative study of the Personal Development Elective, an offering within the leadership curriculum of an international MBA that gives students the option to work with a psychotherapist, we develop a model of how the interplay between the regressive and holding features of an intensive management program foster the personalization of management learning. The personalization process, we posit, allows management education to provide the foundations for leaders’ development by transforming potentially regressive experiences into material for participants’ personal learning, experimentation, and growth.

This paper employs a psychodynamic perspective to examine the development and maintenance of a leader’s identity, building on the premise that such identity work involves both conscious and unconscious processes. We focus on the latter by suggesting that those in coveted leadership roles may engage in projective identification to shape and sustain an identity befitting those roles. Projective identification is the unconscious projection of unwanted aspects of one’s self into others, leading to the bolstering of a conscious self-view concordant with one’s role requirements. Recipients of a leader’s projections may manage these by projecting them back into the leader or into third parties, which may lead to ongoing conflict and the creation of a toxic culture. We use examples from the Gucci family business to illustrate this process.

Identity has emerged as a potent force in understanding leadership. This chapter reviews the contributions of role identity, social identity, and social construction theories toward comprehending the emergence, effectiveness, and development of leaders. In recent years leadership scholars have combined two or more of these identity theories to conceptualize and study a range of phenomena including transitions into leadership roles, the challenges faced by women leaders, and the role of identity workspaces in leadership development. Based on the authors’ review they propose areas where further research attention is needed, in particular the process by which non-prototypical leaders emerge, lead effectively, and develop; leader identities in contemporary settings characterized by globally distributed teams and multiple leadership roles; and identity evolution in the context of the life cycle of a leadership career. 

Profound changes in individuals’ relationship with their employers and expectations for their work lives have generated an increasing demand for leadership development, while at the same time exposing the limitations of traditional leadership programs focused on the acquisition of conceptual knowledge and requisite skills. This chapter explores how conceptualizing leadership programs as “identity workspaces” helps to meet the demand for leadership in ways that benefit individuals, organizations, and society. Alongside the acquisition of knowledge and skills, identity workspaces facilitate the revision and consolidation of individual and collective identities. They personalize and contextualize participants’ learning, inviting them to wrestle with the questions “What does leading mean to us?” and “Who am I as a leader?” Attention to both activity and identity deepens and accelerates the development of individual leaders and strengthens leadership communities within and across organizations.

Further essays and materials from other authors

At first glance, hierarchy may seem difficult to praise. Bureaucracy is a dirty word even among bureaucrats, and in business there is a widespread view that managerial hierarchy kills initiative, crushes creativity, and has therefore seen its day. Yet 35 years of research have convinced me that managerial hierarchy is the most efficient, the hardiest, and in fact the most natural structure ever devised for large organizations. Properly structured, hierarchy can release energy and creativity, rationalize productivity, and actually improve morale. Moreover, I think most managers know this intuitively and have only lacked a workable structure and a decent intellectual justification for what they have always known could work and work well.

It has often been noted that many social phenomena show a strikingly close correspondence with psychotic processes in individuals. Melitta Schmideberg for instance, has pointed to the psychotic content of many primitive ceremonies and rites. And Bion has suggested that the emotional life of the group is only understandable in terms of psychotic mechanisms. My own recent experience has impressed upon me how much institutions are used by their individual members to reinforce individual mechanisms of defence against anxiety, and in particular against recurrence of the early paranoid and depressive anxieties first described by Melanie Klein. In connecting social behaviour with defence against psychotic anxiety, I do not wish in any way to suggest that social relationships serve none other than a defensive function of this kind. Instances of other functions include the equally important expression and gratification of libidinal impulses in constructive social activities, as well as social co-operation in institutions providing creative, sublimatory opportunities. In die present paper, however, I propose to limit myself to a consideration of certain defensive functions; and in so doing I hope to illustrate and define how the mechanisms of projective and introjective identification operate in linking individual and social behaviour.

The idea of social defenses against paranoid and depressive anxiety has grown from a working hypothesis put forward by Jaques in 1955 into a theory of social defenses against the distressing and unbearable emotions aroused by organizational tasks and dynamics. Jaques reneged on his early ideas, dismissing psychodynamic causes and embracing structural explanations. But the application of social defense theory beyond micro-systems to broader systems dynamics has meant that psychodynamic and
structural ideas of system and role have now become more integrated. Organizations contain many systems: task, political, social, technical. The community system level of organization is explored. When not consciously recognized as a system, people are unable to actively take up roles as citizens of the organization. Lack of recognition or assertion of such roles leaves subjectivity under threat. This is yet another source of social defenses. These ideas are explored through reference to inter-subjective theory. 

Many years ago, I published a paper, "Social Systems as Defence Against Persecutory and Depressive Anxiety" (Klein, Heimann, & Money-Kyrle, 1955), in which I laid a great deal of emphasis upon the collusive actions by individuals to concoct organizations as a means of defense against psychotic anxieties, and thereby generating a fundamental cause of problems within those organizations. Accumulating field experience led to my rejection of that view some years later, since when it has been my working assumption that it is badly organized social systems that arouse psychotic anxieties and lead to their disturbing acting out and expression in working relationships. The reason we have bad or dysfunctional organizations is not a reflection of pathological psychological forces to be understood and resolved by the application of psychoanalytical concepts and methods. Far from it. The reason is that there has never been an adequate foundation of understanding of organizations per se. We have simply not yet learned how to construct adequate organizations. That job is only just beginning.

The choice of good leaders is a major task for all organizations. Information regarding the prospective administrator's personality should complement questions regarding his previous experience, his general conceptual skills, his technical knowledge, and the specific skills in the area for which he is being selected. The growing psychoanalytic knowledge about the crucial importance of internal, in contrast to external, object relations, and about the mutual relationships of regression in individuals and in groups, constitutes an important practical tool for the selection of leaders.

A comparison is made between the field of organizational psychology as I saw it in 1965 and how I see it today. Many issues remain the same, but the field is more differentiated, fragmented, and individualized than ever, despite culture, especially national culture, having become a big topic. The field is much larger and has spawned a whole applied field of organization development and new methods of experiential learning. The biggest change has been the decline of work on group dynamics and group interventions reflecting Western cultures of individualism. At the same time, task complexity, interdependency, multiculturalism, social responsibility, and new forms of organization have become new challenges for consultants and researchers because they require relationship building, coordination, and group work.

In this article, we present an overview of the literatures on organizational identity and organizational identification. We provide overviews of four major approaches to organizational identity: functionalist, social constructionist, psychodynamic, and postmodern. The literature on organizational identification, by contrast, exhibits greater consensus due to the hegemonic power of social identity theory, and is predominantly functionalist. We review recent research on organizational identification regarding performance outcomes and antecedents (mainly focusing on leadership and the social exchange perspective), and in relation to change and virtual contexts. Some suggestions for further research are then offered. .

A theory of leadership development is advanced, suggesting that changes in leadership skills may be viewed from the perspective of a general theory of learning and expertise, with consideration of the associated changes in information processing and underlying knowledge structures that occur as skill develops. More specifically, we propose that leadership performance is organized in terms of a progression from novice to intermediate to expert skill levels. At each skill level, the emphasis is on qualitatively different knowledge and information processing capabilities. In addition, because leadership skill development requires proaction on the part of the leader, we propose that identity, meta-cognitive processes, and emotional regulation are critical factors in developing the deeper cognitive structures associated with leadership expertise. Finally, expert leaders may develop unique skills in grounding their identities and leadership activities in coherent, self-relevant, authentic values.

Selected published works

Interested in Leadership? Here is our Top 100 selection of the most important books for professional leaders of all times.


the socratic dialogue

Live video recording and podcasts

Explanations, artefacts and references from the interview

Wilfred Ruprecht Bion DSO (8 September 1897 – 8 November 1979) was an influential English psychoanalyst, who became president of the British Psychoanalytical Society from 1962 to 1965. Wilfred Bion's observations about the role of group processes in group dynamics are set out in Experiences in Groups and Other Papers, written in the 1940s but compiled and published in 1961, where he refers to recurrent emotional states of groups as 'basic assumptions'. Bion argues that in every group, two groups are actually present: the work group, and the basic assumption group. The work group is that aspect of group functioning which has to do with the primary task of the group—what the group has formed to accomplish; will "keep the group anchored to a sophisticated and rational level of behaviour". The basic assumption group describes the tacit underlying assumptions on which the behaviour of the group is based. Bion specifically identified three basic assumptions: dependency, fight-flight, and pairing. When a group adopts any one of these basic assumptions, it interferes with the task the group is attempting to accomplish. Bion believed that interpretation by the therapist of this aspect of group dynamics would, whilst being resisted, also result in potential insight regarding effective, co-operative group work.

Elliott Jaques (January 18, 1917 – March 8, 2003) was a Canadian psychoanalyst, social scientist and management consultant known as the originator of concepts such as corporate culture, midlife crisis, fair pay, maturation curves, time span of discretion (level of work) and requisite organization, as a total system of managerial organization.

Donald Woods Winnicott (7 April 1896 – 25 January 1971) was an English paediatrician and psychoanalyst who was especially influential in the field of object relations theory and developmental psychology. He was a leading member of the British Independent Group of the British Psychoanalytical Society, President of the British Psychoanalytical Society twice (1956–1959 and 1965–1968), and a close associate of Marion Milner. Winnicott is best known for his ideas on the true self and false self, the "good enough" parent, and borrowed from his second wife, Clare Winnicott, arguably his chief professional collaborator, the notion of the transitional object. He wrote several books, including Playing and Reality, and over 200 papers.

Eric Lansdown Trist (11 September 1909 – 4 June 1993) was an English scientist and leading figure in the field of organizational development (OD). He was one of the founders of the Tavistock Institute for Social Research in London. In 1949, his organizational research work, studying work crews in at Elsecar Collieries, with Ken Bamforth, resulted in the famous article, "Some Social and Psychological Consequences of the Longwall Method of Coal Getting." This article highlighted aspects of the miners organisation that today would be termed lean or agile. Trist also collaborated with Fred Emery on developing the socio-technical systems approach to work design.

"I am therefore almost inclined to suggest that you require from your laureates an oath of humility, a sort of hippocratic oath, never to exceed in public pronouncements the limits of their competence. Or you ought at least, on conferring the prize, remind the recipient of the sage counsel of one of the great men in our subject, Alfred Marshall, who wrote: 'Students of social science, must fear popular approval: Evil is with them when all men speak well of them'".

What have we learned? Our "Best Bit" takeaways from the Interview

KEY INSIGHTS FROM THE INTERVIEW FOR OUR INQUIRY

Here you can find the most memorable insights from our interview, related to our three inquiry questions. Simply select from the drop down menu on the right -->

Work and the good life
  • When I did my training in psychiatry, one of the things that I very early became fascinated with, (…) is how important work is to unfold someone's life. Traditionally, in clinical psychiatry and psychoanalysis, we think much about the family, your parents or siblings. And, of course, we think a lot about romantic relationships. And we have a really good way to understand and work with those systems and how those systems can help you grow, or they can pull you apart. From very early on, it was evident to me that work and the workplace are just as important as your family of origin.
  • Maybe I say this because I'm one of these people for whom work is a central avenue of self-discovery and self-expression; I will admit it openly. But I think for many people, work can be a place where they regain their sanity and where they can flourish.
Systems Psychodynamics
  • Systems Psychodynamics is two things at once. One is, (…) like many other fields of scholarship, a body of work, a body of theories. Some of it is conceptual, some of it empirical about how people organize and why they sometimes organize in ways that seem ”irrational”. What we mean by irrational is that in ways that don't seem suited to get the things done, we say we want to get done.
  • The classic question systems psychodynamics tries to address is why we still fall for disturbed leaders. Why do we admire leaders that are clearly troubled and that sometimes make empty promises (…)? Why is it that we sometimes resist change in our organization that we all conceptually understand will be great? It would allow us to come get things done more efficiently and get the whole group to work better, and we still can't let go of the old and dysfunctional way of doing it. I mean, those are questions in which systems psychodynamics tries to come up with an answer (…).
  • In systems psychodynamics (…) there is this thing called the unconscious. We're not just trying to be more efficient, but we kind of try to hold on to something that is convenient, that makes us feel a certain way or not feel a certain way. And it also keeps us in a certain place that keeps a certain world in a place that is maybe not comfortable, but that is familiar. If I were to say the core, conceptually, the core of systems psychodynamics is why it is that we sometimes protect the familiar, even when something else might be more comfortable or more efficient.
  • Systems psychodynamics is almost like a way of living, a way of trying to work or live in organizations while that combines a deep, deep respect for our need to belong and a very deep respect for our need to be free and separate. And it's a way to research, it's a way to manage, it’s a way to live.
  • I know you're gonna ask me what's a good life. It's a way to live with intent. What do I mean by that? (…) As we walk through the world, we walk into systems, and we actually walking in two worlds at the same time, all the time. One is our inner world, very real world. One of the things that's certainly important to people like me is that the inner world has its own reality. It's true, it's real, by its consequences in the world of our history of our dreams, our aspirations, our fears, all that. And then there's the outer world. The world of incentives and opportunities and what's possible for us and what's not possible, the group, the organizational culture, the market, and whatnot.
  • We live at the intersections of both worlds. And those two worlds often very powerfully shape the way we think, the way we feel and the way we act. And at the center of my work is thinking about these two worlds, we can occupy a continuum of positions. One position is down here, where we basically continue to repeat what we have learned to do and who we have learned to be, what the world rewards us for being. I call that a state of drive.
  • Sometimes we are completely embedded into our actions. And then, we are embedded into our understanding, but I'm interested in some space in the middle. And I call that a space of intent. And in that space of intent, we're actually grounded in our inner and our social world without taking either for granted. (…) It’s an approach in which you try to be attached and yet free at the same time. That's what systems psychodynamics tries to do.
  • I'm sure you have 155 questions. And I have a hundred things that I want to say, and we have an hour, which means all three of us have that same challenge, which is, we're going to have to give something up without losing ourselves for this to be a relationship which doesn't demand us to surrender completely, but allows us to be together. It is a microcosm. And that's the fundamental dilemma of systems psychodynamics, how do we join without losing ourselves? 
The normative core of systems psychodynamics
  • From a systems psychodynamics perspective, an organization is not for one thing but for a couple of things. One, we organize to achieve some instrumental aims. There's a very instrumental definition and the necessity to organize, which is we need to get some stuff done that we couldn't do on our own. Okay, whether it's a hospital curing patients, or whether it's selling phones (…). This idea of the primary task is central to system psychodynamics in the organization (…). That's half the job. Another reason we organize is not instrumental, but humanistic. We also organize because we want to be in a place with other people where we can discover, develop, and express ourselves.
  • We don't just go to work to get some stuff done. We also go to work to be someone and not someone else. If you ask me what a good organization is, it's an organization where both the instrumental and the humanistic get equal and explicit attention because every organization is instrumental and humanistic.
  • In traditional organization theory, the instrumental is primary, and the humanistic is a kind of secondary thing. What's unique about systems psychodynamics is just the idea that the two, which are often in a little bit of conflict, are equally important. They're both ends. They're not means. To do and to host are both important. And both need to be tended to, and if an organization is hosting people and making them feel someone, but they don't get anything done, we call it defensive. And if our organization is getting everything done, getting some stuff done, but people feel excluded or oppressed by it, we also call it defensive. So, it's an expansive view of an organization. It's a conflicted view of an organization. But it's a spacious view.
  • Think of yourself as an artist; that's the only thing you must do. As an artist, you must do two things. One is you have to make meaningful stuff that others find interesting. And you also have to make some money; you have to sell that stuff. But making money is secondary to you making things.
  • In system psychodynamic terms making money is not the purpose of your organization. You are making something, providing a service, producing a product. (…) But the money is a consequence. So never think that money is the task. The money is not the task; the money is a consequence of you doing the task well. So, ask yourself, is the organization organized to achieve the task efficiently. And then also ask yourself, is it organized so that people can engage with the task in a way that brings out every bit of them?
The individual vs. the collective?
  • Freedom is not in opposition to surrendering to a collective. Freedom is joining a collective without surrendering. (…) What is human is to be able to be an agent while also being part of something.
Containment
  • In my work, I think in terms of relational and institutional containment. I believe that very often, it gets gendered and gets muddled a little bit. But they're both necessary. If you look at some of my work, there are two different kinds of containing.
  • One of the ideas central to systems psychodynamics is that humanity emerges out of relationships. The best relationship is containing in the sense that they help us regulate our emotions and be creative in our thinking. They free up our thinking, and they kind of help us manage these things called our feelings.
  • One containing thing might be my colleagues. They come in, and I'm in a moment of distress. I'm upset because my paper was rejected, or a client don't want to work with me. And they say it's okay. It's fine. That’s really useful. It makes me feel a bit better and encourages me to think clearly again, and that's purely relational.
  • And then there is institutional containment. I'm an attending professor, I don't have to worry about getting fired if I lose a client, or a paper gets rejected. It's not as warm and direct as relational containment, but it certainly is as important. 
Leadership
  • I often do this exercise when I talk to senior executives; tell me one thing you're proud of. I was actually talking to a CEO of a very large organization last week. This person said being a CEO is a split experience. On the one hand, you have this constant stream of a million things you must do. And then you have this nagging awareness that I will be in this job for a very short time.
  • The most interesting question is, what is my work good for? Because a lot of those leaders who actually are not humanistic are people who are doing work that benefits a small group of people, and everyone else pays the price. And a lot of those leaders that we consider more admirable just have a slightly more expansive circle of care. So think of yourself as an artist, and two, think about how you can expand your circle of care.
  • One of the most solid findings of the social sciences is that power dehumanizes. It makes you think of people as numbers. The scope is so big that you become a little impersonal. And then you do things that people on the receiving end feel like to be careless. (…) If you're that kind of leader, you have to betray. Either you betray the institution, or you betray people, but there's gonna be some betrayal. (…) I don't completely agree. But (…) the moment you identify with the institution rather than also with the individuals, then it's more likely that you will do things that make a lot of sense from the institutional perspective but can appear senseless or even hurtful from the individual perspective.
  • Let us normalize that experience. (…) If you decide to be a leader that kind of breaks with the normative model of the leader that cares only about efficiency and return to the shareholders, then the shareholders are unhappy. They have the right to be unhappy, and you should go down to yourself as a leader and say; Well, that was my leadership; I'm willing to take that risk. Okay, because every time you're trying to be this more expansive leader, in this day and age, you are challenging, you are defying a very narrow, dehumanized, mechanical view of leadership, and therefore, some people will try to de-legitimize it. And if you are the person who wants to disrupt the mainstream model, but I want everyone to like me, then you are in a bad position.
  • The only leaders who are actually mindful, thoughtful, and intentional are the ones that honor and recognize this. Leadership is not something they have. Leadership is something they hold. Going back to this metaphor of the artist. My favorite quote on leadership is from the rock musician Bruce Springsteen. In his autobiography Born to Run, he has this line that I use all the time and it says: “In my line of business you work on behalf of other people's imagination.” It's basically saying I'm a custodian of people's dreams. And I think of that as the complete opposite of Napoleon's classic definition of leadership, that everyone uses. A leader as a merchant in hope. I say no. A leader is not selling hope. A leader is actually holding the hope that others put into him or her. You need to understand the social nature of leadership. Leadership as a social product.
  • Many of our leadership theories and practices focus on what leaders do to groups and not as much on what groups do to leaders. And then we come back and critique and say, oh, there's a lot of narcissistic leaders. Of course, there are a lot of narcissistic leaders because that's what we taught them to be; we thought that what mattered was what they did to groups and how they got their way. The definition of leadership I reject is getting others to do what they wouldn't have otherwise done. That’s a very poetic way of saying, getting your way, narcissist. You can’t teach that and complain about narcissistic leaders because you told people that you can’t be a good leader if you're not a narcissist.
Academia
  • I actually think a lot is changing in business schools. A lot has changed, a lot is changing. (…) We are institutions like every other institution. What does it mean? On a good day, our demand is ahead of the rhetoric and our rhetoric is ahead of the practice. And if I look at students, they have an enormous interest in questions of values, questions of goodness.
  • The only thing that I really dislike is this stereotype of business students who go to business school just to make more money, and gonna get promoted. That's not the people I meet. That's not the people I meet in my MBA program and executive programs. Yes, there are people that want to learn how to be more efficient, more effective, get jobs that they couldn't otherwise got. And at the same time, ask themselves given that I'm going to be working so much and work is gonna be so central to my life, how do I keep my soul? How can I be of service?
  • In my language, I think they understand the existential significance of work as much as the kind of practical necessity and the two are not at all incompatible. And so, in terms of changes, one is I think we need to take subjectivity seriously, (…) and we need to take relations seriously, and really put them at the center of our work, whether it's our research our teaching, or our institutional service. 

Share the most popular quotes with your social media connections: just click + save picture + post!

Do you want to see ALL the best quotes from Leaders for Humanity? Here is our personal selection from all interviews so far (in PDF).


diving deeper

Unleash your curiosity and discover new insights

✿ Good Leadership

Further explorations about system psychodynamics

Experiences in Groups: and Other Papers

Experiences in Groups: and Other Papers

by W. R. Bion (Author)
The Unconscious at Work: Individual and Organizational Stress in the Human Services

The Unconscious at Work: Individual and Organizational Stress in the Human Services

by Anton Obholzer (Editor), Vega Zagier Roberts (Editor)
Socioanalytic Methods: Discovering the Hidden in Organisations and Social Systems

Socioanalytic Methods: Discovering the Hidden in Organisations and Social Systems

by Susan Long
The Perverse Organisation and its Deadly Sins

The Perverse Organisation and its Deadly Sins

by Susan Long
Coaching in Depth: The Organizational Role Analysis Approach

Coaching in Depth: The Organizational Role Analysis Approach

by Susan Long
A Structural Analysis of Small Groups

A Structural Analysis of Small Groups

by Susan Long
The Neurotic Organization: Diagnosing and Changing Counterproductive Styles of Management

The Neurotic Organization

by Manfred F. R. Kets De Vries, Danny Miller
The Leader on the Couch: A Clinical Approach to Changing People and Organizations

The Leader on the Couch: A Clinical Approach to Changing People and Organizations

by Manfred F. R. Kets de Vries
Organization in the Mind: Psychoanalysis, Group Relations and Organizational Consultancy

Organization in the Mind

by David Armstrong
The Social Unconscious in Persons, Groups, and Societies: Mainly Theory" edited by Earl Hopper and Haim Weinberg

The Social Unconscious in Persons, Groups, and Societies

by Earl Hopper (Editor)
Emotion in Organizations

Emotion in Organizations

by Stephen Fineman (Editor)
The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth

The Fearless Organization

by Amy C. Edmondson
The Oxford handbook of identities in organizations,

The Oxford handbook of identities in organizations

by Andrew D. Brown (Editor)
The Social Engagement of Social Science, a Tavistock Anthology

The Social Engagement of Social Science, a Tavistock Anthology

by Eric Trist (Editor), Hugh Murray (Editor), Beulah Trist (Editor)
Leadership and the New Science

Leadership and the New Science

by Margaret J. Wheatley
Fairbairn's Object Relations Theory in the Clinical Setting

Fairbairn's Object Relations Theory in the Clinical Setting

by David P. Celani
The Courage to Be: Third Edition

The Courage to Be

by Paul Tillich, Harvey Cox
Attachment in Psychotherapy

Attachment in Psychotherapy

by David J. Wallin
The Corrosion of Character – The Personal Consequences of Work in the New Capitalism

The Corrosion of Character – The Personal Consequences of Work in the New Capitalism

by Richard Sennett
From Dependency to Autonomy: Studies in Organization and Change

From Dependency to Autonomy: Studies in Organization and Change

by Eric J. Miller
Everyone Culture: Becoming a Deliberately Developmental Organization

Everyone Culture: Becoming a Deliberately Developmental Organization

by Robert Kegan, Lisa Laskow Lahey, Matthew L Miller, Andy Fleming

Transforming Experience in Organisations: A Framework for Organisational Research and Consultancy

by Susan Long

Related blog posts

From Psychological Safety to Psychological Hope: Taking a Leap Beyond the “Comfort zone”

From Psychological Safety to Psychological Hope: Taking a Leap Beyond the “Comfort zone”

Psychological Safety relates, roughly speaking, to the belief that we shouldn’t be punished or humiliated for speaking up with our ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes. Which, if you asked me, sounds pretty much like common sense. Fancy name apart — why did everybody jump on it as if it was the hottest thing since the invention of bread?

(6 min read)

Letting Go of Leadership: The Urgent Case for A Global Leadership Iconoclasm

Letting Go of Leadership -The Urgent Case for A Global Leadership Iconoclasm

Are you a good leader? In case you are emphatically nodding, how would you know? Regrettably, it has become increasingly difficult to discern what “good Leadership” actually means. Searching Google reveals a mind-boggling 148 million links to the term. Amazon hosts over 100,000 entries.

(9 min read)



CONTINUing YOUR JOURNEY

Explore all the popular interviews in this section